Curse

Quaker · Jun 28, 2009, 08:08 PM // 20:08

It seems as though there are too many "experts" in this game who are the type of experts who simply parrot the leet opinions, without any real knowledge of why something may or may not be better. You can recognize these guys because they will say things like "sundering is crap" or "you must have HB" but they will have no ability to explain why they say these things, nor any idea of what may work (or not work) as well.
They will also usually resort to calling others noobs (or worse) because they can't discuss things rationally.
However, I find that the wikis are generally places to find good information.

At any rate, OP, you will find it difficult to find really good information by asking for help in local chat - or by listening to some doofus in your party who parrots the latest leet speak.

Bloody Dominator · Jun 28, 2009, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

Funny story....

at this point you'll realize you just left what some would call a high-end pve guild. after laughing at how pathetic pve is you'll say "RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO it, i'm experienced enough to play competitively now" and you'll finally start doing pvp.

only then should you be allowed to talk on forums. posting and arguing over pve bullshit is only useful if you're trolling.

So what im reading here is: pve is nonsense and anyone who plays it is a fool and should be denied access to the forums. Unless u were joking i find this offensive and dumb.
And posting and arguing about "pve-bullshit" ,as u wanna call it, is not useless, it can actually help.
Maybe its useless to u, becuz u are so "experienced"

OT: yes all the abreviations confuse me and make me quit reading a thread, a real shame

jayebyrd00 · Jul 01, 2009, 09:58 AM // 09:58

only then should you be allowed to talk on forums. posting and arguing over pve bullshit is only useful if you're trolling.

so tell me again.....who is the bigot???

Wish Swiftdeath · Jul 01, 2009, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

It seems as though there are too many "experts" in this game who are the type of experts who simply parrot the leet opinions, without any real knowledge of why something may or may not be better. You can recognize these guys because they will say things like "sundering is crap" or "you must have HB" but they will have no ability to explain why they say these things, nor any idea of what may work (or not work) as well.
They will also usually resort to calling others noobs (or worse) because they can't discuss things rationally.
However, I find that the wikis are generally places to find good information.

At any rate, OP, you will find it difficult to find really good information by asking for help in local chat - or by listening to some doofus in your party who parrots the latest leet speak.

Or people might not want to explain the maths behind why vampiric>sundering for the thousandth time?

maxxfury · Jul 01, 2009, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Maybe this situation goes both ways in general..

Should some of the Vets try explaining a little more newb friendly? yeah i guess so!

Should the new guys maybe take a little notice of whats actually been said tho? damn right!¬

The elite attitubes can be annoying from the vets but the "but i still know better cos i finished normal mode proph!" attitude of the new guys doesnt help the whole situation either!! and will usually leave them dismissed as noobs..(how ever much i HATE that term)

Yes you finished a chapter, congrats! but when you ask for help your gonna get (hopefully) an experienced reply from someone who DOES know better and has likely experienced the game a MASSIVE amount more than you, and tested more options that you can think of!

So the self righteous attitude defending a build that "gets by" isnt gonna gain a lot of help when you take this stance. the Veterans here 99% of the time CAN tell if a build is gonna work or fail or et by just by looking at it!!

Also the asshat trolling repliles are usually pretty easy to tell right away as most of them have little tallent at trolling :P tho some get thru and i take my hat of the the creative ones

End result is = Vets need to be a little more newb friendly with terminology and newbs need to actually listen to the the more experienced replies they DO recieve and not blindly ignore the advice they ast for! OR take the advice as a personal flame..

But then will it happen? likely answer is no

from the majority

Abedeus · Jul 01, 2009, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

It seems as though there are too many "experts" in this game who are the type of experts who simply parrot the leet opinions, without any real knowledge of why something may or may not be better. You can recognize these guys because they will say things like "sundering is crap"

It is crap on anything except scythes and hammers.

It's simple math. When the 20% chance for 20% more damage is, in long run, worth less than a Vampiric, elemental or zealous, then it's not worth anything.

Also, with Axes, Bows and Spears, the damage is spread out - you might increase your 10 damage by 20%... and it'll be 12 damage. WOAH.

Daggers and Swords, on the other hand, are just low-damage. So you might increase your 4 damage by 20% and it will be almost 5, rounded up.

There were few threads about it, but I'll say it again - chances of the mod increasing damage or making the enemy die faster are too low. Even the 33% longer bleeding, poison or deep wound mods will cause the death faster.

Avarre · Jul 20, 2009, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

It is crap on anything except scythes and hammers.

It's simple math. When the 20% chance for 20% more damage is, in long run, worth less than a Vampiric, elemental or zealous, then it's not worth anything.

+3 damage per hit in PvP just gets mopped up by party healing. 20% AP has a chance, in spike builds, to finish off a target you might not have been able to kill. For that reason alone, Sundering has a place in PvP. DPS doesn't kill people, terrible terrible damage at a single point kills people.

Quaker is very correct. The reason for 'parrot experts' is that most of the math has been posted, and therefore having read it, they feel educated. However, Guild Wars is theory and practice, and most of these players aren't actually good at the game. Thus, they theorycraft endlessly from what the early opinions are rather than coming to a conclusion from experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayebyrd00

so tell me again.....who is the bigot???

I'm going to be honest. There's no good PvE player in Guild Wars who hasn't played PvP.

Racthoh, Sab, Cerb, Sno, Jerrypants, Arkantos/Fenix (you made a guide, so you can be here for now), and more? All r6+. All with GvG experience. The best PvE players have always been the players who play all parts of Guild Wars.

Terrokian · Jul 20, 2009, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

It is crap on anything except scythes and hammers.

It's simple math. When the 20% chance for 20% more damage is, in long run, worth less than a Vampiric, elemental or zealous, then it's not worth anything.

Also, with Axes, Bows and Spears, the damage is spread out - you might increase your 10 damage by 20%... and it'll be 12 damage. WOAH.

Daggers and Swords, on the other hand, are just low-damage. So you might increase your 4 damage by 20% and it will be almost 5, rounded up.

There were few threads about it, but I'll say it again - chances of the mod increasing damage or making the enemy die faster are too low. Even the 33% longer bleeding, poison or deep wound mods will cause the death faster.

Here we go. SUNDERING is not a 20% increase in damage.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Armor_penetration

It goes off 1 out of every 5 attacks on average. If it didn't, then why not make it say"May go off on occasion for 20% armor penetration" . It does go off 20% of the time DON'T bother arguing that point. If 20% chance was such crap odds, then why do casters go gaga for 20% HCT or 20% HSR? Pretty much puts 20% in perspective. Roughly speaking it is a 43%+ increase in damage when it does. Where this plays out is the ability to keep up a good damage level. Vampiric DOES NOT have the ability to increase. It is a steady +3 damage period. Sundering is applied to the WHOLE of the damage Vampiric is still just 3 damage.

so here's 5 REALISTIC hits

Vampiric // Sundering
60+3 // 60
60+3 // 60
60+3 // 60
60+3 // 60
60+3 // 60+sunder effect(60 x .43=25.8)
total 315 // total 325.8

So how did the whole go Vampiric you noob legend start? Some knucklehead took a white sundering VS a white vampiric weapon. AT NO TIME DID THIS GUY FIGURE USING ONE SKILL.SKILLS ADD DAMAGE TO THE WHOLE. So I will use white daggers with the appropriate mods to show this.

Vampiric // Sundering
12+3 // 12
12+3 // 12
12+3 // 12
12+3 // 12
12+3 // 12+sunder effect(12 x .43=5.16)
total 75 // total 65.16

Looking at it that way Vampiric certainly does blow Sundering away. Now do you seriously putter around in HM doing 12 damage a hit? Sundering>Vampiric UNLESS you are at a very low damage output. But you keep farming those level 3 grawls sunshine, your day will come.

Xenomortis · Jul 20, 2009, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

I will use white daggers with the appropriate mods to show this...

[Artificial Data and Comments]

Daggers are unique in that they have a very low base damage and a double strike chance, but that isn't really relevant to what you posted. All that means is your attack rate and thus DPS is increased.
Sundering triggering on daggers is a small increase in damage (but increases as the target's AL increases).

Vampiric mods will increase the damage by a set and predictable amount - they deal an unprotectable, extra damage package and on weapons with a high attack rate (namely daggers, but this applies to scythes too) can provide some healing (however trivial).

I think most importantly though, the Sundering mod does not increase the damage from attack skills.
It's effect is based on the base damage of your weapon and the AL of your target (the damage increases as each of those increases). The best damage increase would come when you crit with a scythe on a very high armour target.

The odds of your attack spike coinciding with a crit and the sundering mod is somewhat low though.

I don't know what's worse, the fact this post is unstructured, or the fact that after reading it for 10 minutes, I can't structure it.

Avarre · Jul 21, 2009, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Ugh.

In PvE vampiric wins because you just want to get the most total damage out over time. You're not competing against infuse or prot to land a kill, you're competing against health bars.

In PvP it depends on the build being run, because most builds are physical spike builds, and you're going to have a lot of chances to get high crit bursts. Spike builds typically have lower DPS than pressure builds, sacrificing it in favor of damage compression.